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[CooperChick]

WCMUT?
 
My manager and co-worker called me smart after I stated that I wished of a "cornucopia of cash"
 
Ok, so I read a lot.  I mean... ALL THE TIME.  But I'm not THAT smart.   

[bamatt]

OMG that reminds me of a time I got called smart at work     One of my general contractors (big company, not idiots or country bumpkins or anything) said this architect was acting all hoity toity & snotty with them.  Well on one of my submittal packages to the architect I had asked a question on my cover sheet.  I had pointed out that the installation was "contraindicated" with the environment for that material (or something like that).  Contraindicated is a word that is used frequently in a medical environment so I was familiar with it thanks to my Nursing Degree.  I guess I never thought that it's not used so commonly out of a medi setting

Well the GC called & asked me WTF "contraindicated" meant.  Said they had been looking all over & trying to figure it out for a bit.  I told them the definition & asked if they wanted me to rewrite my question using a different word.  They told me NO because they knew that dang architect would have no clue what it was either & they wanted  him to have to dig to figure out what it meant too.


... yeah I think that's about the only time I have been called really smart... to my face at least 

[sikamini]

  Picking on a poor  little architect..      Glad someone reads those specs and drawings... I hate sending back submittals that don't meet the specified criteria....it's a waste of everyones time and I don't have much pitty for a GC who does. The compliance of each vendors product is the responsibility of the GC...not the architect...    I've been dying to use that smiley..

[Steve Cos]

My license plate is GUINESS. Its for my son - long story but its an Irish thing in our family and my son is named Guinness. It has nothing to do with the beverage. But anyway, for the license plate we are only allowed 7 letters so I had to drop something so I dropped an N. Half the people who see the plate make some comment about me being a genius.

[mcrmini]

So it cheered you up that those people can't read or spell? 

[bamatt]

  Picking on a poor  little architect..      Glad someone reads those specs and drawings... I hate sending back submittals that don't meet the specified criteria....it's a waste of everyones time and I don't have much pitty for a GC who does. The compliance of each vendors product is the responsibility of the GC...not the architect...    I've been dying to use that smiley..  

I disagree somewhat  & feel it's 100% the architect's responsibility to be sure everything is up to code & that the correct materials have been specified for a proper installation.  I mean if that's not the case then why bother having an architect?  Why pay an architect all that money if all they are creating is pretty, meaningless pictures?  Why bother having specs & plans if you are not going to build per them?  If the architect has no responsibility let's do away with him & just toss up some lumber & crap & see how it turns out 

See I hate when architects specify wrong things then expect everyone else to incur the cost of fixing their architectural blunder.  Doesn't happen with me no sir      A GC's job is to build a job per plans & specs.  My job as a material supplier is to supply the GC material that meets the architectural plans & specs.  The architect is responsible for making sure those plans & specs are correct.  I will do all I can to point out errors during the bidding process & suggest cheaper alternatives post bid to help someone out but I am not forking over a few $K because some architect hasn't got a clue WTH they are doing & didn't bother to respond to my petty questions pre-bid

See that architect specified something that would basically disintegrate in a wet environment but ignored that this was pointed out to him before the bid & refused to address it & specify a proper material for the environment.  Sooo I bid what he spec'd as I had no choice, that is my job.
 

[sikamini]

  TT,  I think you misunderstood me....after the architect makes the 100 percent correct documents -  specifications and drawings,  the General Contractor who is awarded the contract is legally responsible for submitting the product so that it is in compliance with the architects specifications and drawings - both items need to comply.  A code is a minimum standard and any good architect will specify and design to exceed any code. Unfortunately, it is my experience that some contracts believe they can submit products which are less than specified, but meet code -  that is not acceptable.  The GC is responsible for checking that all components his vendors submit to him meet the standard set in the bid documents -  the drawings and specs.. prior to sending them to the architect for review.  So when I get them there should be nothing wrong with the package, after all,  I took the time to write a specification and detail the project properly..he should take the time to send me what was required not what he wants. 
There is only a few instances where a product is sent that is not as specified.....one the product is no longer available or the other....never mind the other I don't allow substitutions.  (That's my right as written in my spec)
The only time the GC can get a substitution in,  is if he does it during the bid phase prior to openning the bids............once they are openned.....all bidders are asked if they are in compliance with the documents....after that their fate is sealed!  I don't have any problems with most contractors that know me....they know to read and follow the specifications and drawings and submit items as requested. For that kind.....I play nicely.....the other..I'll remind them of their contract . 

[sikamini]

Oh....the biggest excuse I hear from GCs....we've always done it this way. I tell them that would be fine if you wrote the spec! 

[sikamini]

TT,  there is no excuse for not answering a vendors questions - I answer all questions prior to bid - even after.  Hope you have better luck with architects in the future......Meeting design criteria is the main goal for the architect and engineer......the contractor wants to build a quality product under the bid price and hopefully increase his profits. 
Are you in the HVAC sector or....?

[bamatt]

The only thing I don't like is when architects say no substitutions without prior approval.  All that does is hurt the owner & cause them to spend more money because most vendors like me are too busy to do a takeoff early enough to get an approval in "x" amount of days & frankly the process is such a PITA that it's not worth my time on my smaller ticket items so I just move on.  Granted I can bid 95% of all manufacturer's products out there that I sell but most times an architect that has written no substitutions has gotten some overpriced manufacturer to write the spec for them & unknowingly they have cost their owner thousands more than they should spend.

Luckily around here most architects write their specs to allow substitutions as long as the product is equal in my Division.  Keep in mind Division 10 items are not normally viewed with such thoroughness as the bigger ticket items (at least not around here)


Also I rarely submit division 10 exactly as is written in the spec & most wouldn't want me to.  There are a lot of unnecessary things listed in the spec that our local architects don't really want & it just wastes paper & everyone's time.  I mean most really don't care about the VOC content & the likes of a toilet paper holder (unless the job is with the Federal Government  ) so we act like those requirements are not there.  Some of the specs I read are downright funny.  Wanting samples sent on a job with $200 worth of toilet accessories so yes, that requirement is normally ignored too but I am always happy to charge an extra $125 to ship one of each item to the architect for Toilet paper Holder inspection raising the cost of toilet accessories to the owner by approx 60% if the architect is really dead set on such silliness as inspecting a TP Holder before they actually will approve my submittal & I put that info in my quote on jobs where I know the architect is know to have a reputation for well... being that silly 

[sikamini]

The only thing I don't like is when architects say no substitutions without prior approval.  .........[edit].......

That's pretty standard when substitutions are allowed. I know what your saying too, somethings get silly, but depending on the item in question,  a rash substitution can cost much more than the savings.  After a contract is signed and a substitution is requested the client/owner rarely gets a fair share back. So it becomes an issue of sacrificing quality for a little savings.......most architects and owners prefer a quality product and will turn down that kind of substitution. Samples are requested for various reasons, including verification of quality....manufacturers do on a occasion change their products..and the new product may not be the same as a previous line. All architects and engineers have to draw a line somewhere...you can't expect a sample for  every nut in a building, but if I request a sample I expect to see a sample or there will be an unhappy GC. We don't pay for submittals....if the GC does then it would be to his advantage to get it right the first time.   
Division 10 items usually carry good documentation for materials and finishes........I don't need to see a full partition panel either...just the current color samples and finishes. I expect shop drawings which reflect the building I've designed not a generic drawing.  I've never had a project where a Division 10 item or any divison item was missed in the documents, but that doesn't mean all architects perform at the same level.  How the GC gathers his data is his business,  I'm only concerned with if it's spec or not.  I give contractors ample time to submit alternate products prior to bid....but if it doesn't get reviewed and included by the bid date then we go with as specified.  (All contractors have to have an opportunity to choose that product ..... I try not to issue addenda in the last 24 hours prior to bid) 

[sikamini]

Just for the record...I spend hours, days, months up to a year or more designing, writing, researching, meeting, coordinating all aspects with the design team and owner....the bid process is usually 2-3 weeks! 

[bamatt]

sika I have been doing this for over 10 years so I am not a noob   The bid process for a GC may be 2-3 weeks but most people bidding to a GC usually do not start their takeoffs until about 1 week prior to bid date.  It's not common for an architect around here to require prior approval for substitutions.  Most specs read "as manufactured by" or "equal to" so I am free to bid most manufacturers as long as they are equal.

No offense but if you were an architect here I would refuse to bid your jobs after going through one submittal process with you (as would most other local Div 10 suppliers).  There are 2 local architects that I don't bid currently.  GC's call & beg everyone to bid when their jobs come up but I refuse.  Often the profit margin is so slim on Division 10 items (sometimes even being as small as $100 on a whole spec section) so frankly that it's not worth risking losing money on &/or spending hours wasting time on meeting a rigorous submittal & 99% of the local architects here do not expect all you do on Division 10.

[sikamini]

I'm not implying that your not qualified in your job TT.  The key is how the specs read. And as you say most only start their take off the last week...however that does not releave them of the responsibility to bid what is specified.
I'll try an example here are 3 items , the specification asks for the first one, while technically a performance spec could be written to include all three, I specified the first.....which would you submit? (the three represent the whole division)

[sikamini]

TT after one submittal process with me...you wouldn't want to work with any other architect.  Also for full disclosure.....my other degree is in construction management...which means I could have gone to work for GC as a project manager. 

[bamatt]

Division 10 commercial work it's not like Division 15 faucets.  There are basically 3 big Toilet Accessory manufacturer's & to ask an owner to pay as much as 60% higher for their accessories on a small job just so you can be sure which of the following 3 you are getting is kinda pointless & not cost effective so in Alabama the architects do not do it as they are familiar with the Big 3 & their Toilet Accessories & can tell enough from the cut sheets I provide.  Same goes for Toilet Compartments, Fire Extinguisher Cabinets, & most of the other items I sell.  It is extremely rare I am asked to provide samples even though I would say 70% of specs call for them

   

[sikamini]

  But I spec'ed this one:

[bamatt]

Do you do residential jobs, condos, or very small commercial jobs only?  Those are the only kind of jobs that use Toilet Accessories like that (which are more of an upper scale residential type).  I never seen a Toilet Paper Holder like that spec'd on a single large commercial job I have bid in 10 years & I guess I bid 20-30 jobs a month 

[Rooster]

It's nice to see someone else being the nerds for once.

 

Please, continue.
 

Oh, and these are the normal "design considerations" I get to deal with on a daily basis...

[bamatt]

Being a nerd is fun.... sometimes 



WCMUT:  Knowing there is less than one hour left in this freaking, 5-job-bidding, day from hell 

[sikamini]

Do you do residential jobs, condos, or very small commercial jobs only?  Those are the only kind of jobs that use Toilet Accessories like that (which are more of an upper scale residential type).  I never seen a Toilet Paper Holder like that spec'd on a single large commercial job I have bid in 10 years & I guess I bid 20-30 jobs a month   

From residential, schools, office building and so on...

[sikamini]

This weekend is car control school time.....time to get re-educated! 

[x UHOH x]

WCMUT:  Getting home to relax.  It's been a seriously LONG and brain-straining day.  Just driving my little 5-10 minute drive home in the MINI made the day better.   

[bamatt]

^^^ Plus you made it over the hump... that's always good

[mcrmini]

WCMUT:   Oddly enough.....some nice apple cinnamon oatmeal this afternoon...     I never would've figured that.